Blair - The Knives Are Out - *Updated*

For God's sake I hope they call it ANYTHING BUT Homeland Security. As if we need any more evidence that the UK is being run from the US. Pretty soon any press-releases from them about foreign affairs will be officially speaking for us too.

Ah, so... you admit it. Vote BNP in Labour-BNP marginals. Nick will be so proud of you that I'm told it is the slogan he's using too.

Oh Bob, stop being so silly, we've never said anything of the sort and you know it.

If anyone's doing anything to promote the BNP, it's Clarke's fiasco that has given them a boost.

Then try to get a grasp of the real world if you've got the time. Advising people in Labour/BNP marginals to vote 'anyone but Labour' will result in what, precisely? I don't know where you live... but it sure as hell ain't around here where this filth actually gets elected. I'm sure Clarke's incompetence is meat and drink to the racists... I'm equally sure your advise will only be read by a clique of bloody liberals. But if you think the BNP are not feeding out the same shit, you need treatment.

I'm equally sure your advise will only be read by a clique of bloody liberals.

So unlax, then.

Bob, why do you think there has been such a rise in support for the BNP? It would seem that the longer Labour stay in power the more of their core white, working class voters switch to the far right.

So a few nutcases get elected. Does the sky fall? Will the world stop spinning? Of course not. Indeed BNP councillors tend not to get re-elected.

The real danger to democracy isn't with a fringe party but with the governing party's authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties.

So... a few nutcases get elected. I don't believe I'm reading this. Roll up, roll up, Neville Chamberlain's back in town.

Tim, I am perfectly unlaxed, if that's possible. I don't think Blairwatch advising people to vote for 'Anyone' but Labour will make a jot of difference in any ward anywhere. What annoys me is the downright political naivity, or is it stupidity, of people who spread a message that fascists leap on to. The reality is, fascits don't prosper under authoritarian governments, as the NF found when they collapsed under Thatcher's regime. So... perhaps we should all Vote For Ming, because a 'few more nutcases' might just win.

Bob, you say - "Clarke's incompetence is meat and drink to the racists..."

Then isn't it incumbent on Labour, or more specifically the Labour government to deal with Charles Clarke, and deal with the issues the BNP distort and thrive on.

The only way people have to express their disgust at this government is through the ballot box - if those within the Labour party cleared up their own mess, and used their positions to effect change, you might find people like us out campaining for you, like some of us used to.

But We have been here before haven't we?

I think the point about "a few nutters getting elected" is comparing the effect of the Labour government on British, and International politics to the impact the possibility of one or two nutters becoming local councillors.

That's hardly a call for a BNP government, it's saying in the great scheme of things one or two facists elected to local councils will have significantly less impact on the lives of people here in the UK and elsewhere in the world - in Iraq for example, than the continued implementation of the policies of this government.

Mind you, I may well be proved wrong, but I find it hard to swallow the idea that there is going to be a big swing from Labour to the BNP - there may be a few people stupid enough to vote facist, but I hope I am right in guestimating the actual number will be tiny.

I don't know Sandwell Bob, but unless you are being confronted by a groundswell of BNP support on the doorstep, I think you might be in danger of believing your own parties propaganda...?

Great work as always, Blairwatch! Just a reminder that on the London Strategic Voter website, you can access detailed information on the opposition party best placed to beat Labour in your local ward, simply by entering your postcode. We also highlight a small number of East London seats that we categorise as "BNP risk". There's also quite a lot of activity going on in our forums: http://www.strategicvoter.org.uk/phpbb/

I don't think anyone associated with the left-of-New-Labour movement wants to see the BNP gain ground, and personally I think Bob Piper, whose comments I've generally found refreshingly off-message, is demeaning himself by trying to smear Blairwatch with that tag. C'mon Bob, isn't it time you went Independent anyway? While we're on the subject of Nazism, do you really want to continue associating yourself with people like Clarke, Hain and Straw, the natural heirs to the corrupt and complacent Weimar politicians who handed Hitler power in 1933?

Well, in Sandwell we've already had two fascists elected. This year they are predicted to win two working class seats in Tipton. in Birmingham and Soke they are fighting virtually every seat. Check out: http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/index.php?location=ec2006 or this: http://www.socialistunitynetwork.co.uk/activate/election2006.htm

At least they've got a sensible proposal.

You have deliberately misled people over our position.

On the basis of a handfull of seats where the BNP may be the primary opposition you have said that we at Blairwatch are supporting the BNP.

That is a lie and a libel.

But let's take a moment to think about Labour and the BNP. As Patricia Hodge said, people are tempted to vote BNP because Labour doesn't listen to them or represent them.

Therefore your argument is Vote Labour to stop the BNP even though it is the behaviour of Labour that is driving people to the BNP.

An interesting reading of the origins of the Second World War LS Voter, if not somewhat worrying. I've made my personal position clear on a number of occasions; My background is a life in the trade union movement and the left of the Labour Party. If the trade unions disaffiliate (or Blair/Brown disaffiliate them) I'll go when they do. I regret a lot of left comrades decided to leave the Party and I respect them, and their decision, but I ask myself, What does your enemy want? The answer rings back.. He wants to alienate the left and drive them out of the Party. As you can probably tell from my blog, I make no secret of my distaste for the whole New Labour project, and the electorate here can take it or leave it.

Bob, how badly does a party have to suck before some people (only a few thankfully) actually see a bunch of fascist morons as a viable alternative and what does this tell you about Labour? If people are leaving Labour in droves thats one thing, if some of them are headed to the BNP then I don't think staying in Labour is going to help much.

Why not start up another party called "Real Labour" or something like that? If the sensible politicians remaining in New Labour got together and did that maybe they would get the support of the unions too (as well as countless dissafected Labour voters). At the moment the unions are pumping cash into New Labour, a party that does not give a damn about union principles and is only interested in how much money it can hit them up for.

Ok, so its too late for this election but if enough people vote anyone but Labour that might achieve what the Labour party should have done ages ago and get rid of a leader who is far more dangerous than Nick Griffin.

Funny how Bob is railing against the fascist BNP, but his leader Tony Blair is busy instituting so many restrictions on civil liberties....

Of course, I would not go as far as to call Blair a fascist, but if I was of the jackboot wearing persuasion, I would love to inherit the system that Tony has put in place.

This - vote anyone but Labour - is a really stupid thing to to say. Have your rant against Blair but also be responsible. Balanace your comments with an appeal for your readers to NOT vote BNP and why not create a link to Searchlight or the ANL?

AmericanJesus: The BNP are not fascist although they are certainly authoritarian. In fact, many of their policies are socialist, and certainly economically, they are to the left of New Labour. The problem with the BNP is that they are racist thugs.

Fascism is a particular type of government created by Mussolini and his party. It is the merger of state and corporate power combined with a belligerent nationalism and authoritarian treatment of the population. Pretty well sums up New Labour to me.

OK - please forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm not that great on politics although kind of interested.
I'm no Blair fan, infact quite the opposite but your statement "If you want a change of leader, vote anyone but Labour." baffles me as a message to be sending out.
I'll vote labour on Thursday, not because I want Mr. Blair to remain, not because I like *new labour* and their policies etc. but because the man I'll be voting for works really hard for his constituency and his hard work can be seen every day around my area. If it weren’t for his hard work I’d have a 24hr casino a few hundred metres from my house, I wouldn’t have a great recycling scheme, new street lights being put in and I’d live on high street with no shops!

The idea of voting for anyone BUT this man is bizarre! To vote for people who care so much about my vote that they haven’t canvassed my area asking about issues, there are no leaflets hitting the doorstep – I couldn’t even tell you their names!

In my opinion (which counts for very little I know!) we should be encouraging voting on who will make the most difference at grass roots, not tactical voting, which could leave people with councillors who fail to represent their constituents.

I’m back off to my kitchen sink and you are all free to laugh at me for being so naive!

We're not laughing at you, but taking a more national perspective. It is difficult to use this across the board, especially in the european elections where several Labour MEP's I know should be returned as I believe they are just excellent.

I do sometimes wonder if the English local elections will be the end of Tony Blair, yet alone the New Labour Project, since it would take Gordon Brown to try to challenge Blair soon after the elections, which I don't see Brown having the courage to do so.

I also think that the wording of your oringal post is wrong and has caused some confusion "Vote anyone but Labour" does imply that a vote for the BNP is legitimate vote to protest against New "Labour" and Tony Blair, maybe it would have put (Unless the BNP are a real threat, then make vote Labour)

I also don't think that you are saying Vote BNP, however if you don't vote for the Green Party or RESPECT in a Labour/BNP marginal, then you run a risk of seeing a BNP cannidate elected

Jess, you've got me all embarrassed now. Thanks for those nice words. Strangely, though, I know what they are saying. They are quite right that a vote for me will be counted by the media and the Blairites as a vote for them.

Still vote for me though, please.

If I only had the choice of Labour or the BNP, I'd stand myself, so I'd at least have a choice of one democratic party to vote for. 'Vote anyone but Labour' does not equal 'Vote BNP' unless there really is somewhere where there are only two candidates, in which case things are worse than I thought.

The BNP's overt policies do indeed find a resonance, in that they're basic bread-and-butter left-wing policies - healthcare, pensions, a fair crack for the little guy against the faceless fat cats - that are really Labour's natural territory. Add into that the dog-whistle anti-immigrant gibberish that resonates with what they read in the tabloids and you get a nasty cocktail.

The BNP are like rats though - wherever you leave a gap they'll get i. The trick is to leave a small enough gap so that it's only the loonies and real racists who vote for them, and they can safely be left to get on with their traditional pursuits of dressing up as Nazis, bickering and violence. I'd be interested to know if they ever do get re-elected - they do seem to get voted out very quickly when they do get in.

If anyone wants some evidence that it's at least partially dislike of Labour that's driving people to the BNP, check out the two threads on here:

Note the common themes - Labour have sold us out, the main parties have sold us out, the BNP speak 'common sense'. There's also a substantial number of comments about the recent activities of the Home Office (ID cards, prisoner non-deportation) which can be seen to have increased this perception. Here's a few choice quotes - selected by me of course, but that's to save you reading 12 pages of mostly dispiriting ranting, but it's an important issue.

I find that whenever Bob pipes up with his scare tactics about Nazis and the BNP, all I have to do is watch this scene from Labour Party Conference September 2005, and ask: "Where were you when this was happening?"

The idea that Blair would actually resign on account of a poor showing on the local elections is, of course, naive. Like Charles Kennedy, Blair Will Never Resign.

The only thing that will get Blair out is if all these honest hard-working, respectable Labour councillors whom we love lost every one of their seats to the despicable BNP, and therefore had enough time on their hands to drive down to London and drag this bastard out of Downing Street like a cat through a hedgerow.

This has gone on long enough. Labour Party officials have one job and one job only now before we can move on. Anything else is a distraction.

Well, its money where your mouth is goatchurch. you're not a councillor, not a party member, why not get your deluded mind and body down to London and do some dragging? Why are you sitting about waiting for someone else to do it for you?

Oh, yes, I remember... so you've got somebody else to blame!

If you are so inadequate and incapable that you are going to sit on your lazy arse and ask someone else to do something for you, spin on it. If all those Labour councillors lost their seats to the BNP as you appear to desire, then slackers and loose mouths like yourself would be the first up against the wall... if you weren't too busy collaborating with your new found friends

Mr Piper, you are assuming that people should put party ahead of country.

They should not. The sooner NuLabour is gone and normal politics resumes, the better.

'Anybody But Labour' is a good strategy.

"...goatchurch. you're not a councillor, not a party member,..."

Precisely, Mr Piper. However, you are and, as you have put yourself forward as a party member and as a leader (albeit minor) representing that party, it is up to you and your ilk to get rid of Bliar and his cronies.

The rest, like Goatchurch, who are not labour party members do the dragging you recommend by NOT voting Labour. It's time for you, Mr Piper, to put your money where your mouth is.

Yes, Mr Chappell, I see that involves you and Goatchurch working really hard for 30 seconds every year. Life must be nice in the slow lane.

At one level I share Bob Piper's concerns re a BNP resurgence. Reason tells me though it is overblown. Dick Cheney is right in pointing out that fascism is essentially the merger of corporate wealth and political power. It is not necessarily racist. Whatever else Saddam was, he is yet to be accused of racism. Iraq certainly managed to function as a non sectarian secular entity under his dictatotrial rule, something that the liberated Iraq certainly is not. BNP comes closer to Nazism in touting an aggressive nationalism based on race and cloaked in populist socialism. The only difference is that BNP does not overtly manipulate religiosity as Hitler did. Perhaps it lacks the ability as it lacks the nous to establish links with corporate wealth. That last will stop it from getting close to power.

Supposing the local elections do force an internal revolt in the Labour ranks. The rebels still intend to give Blair 12-18 months! That is way too long to force any change of direction.

I'd like to see a non Labour, non Tory Parliamentary block with enough numbers to keep the bastards honest, and no, I don't mean the Lib Dems. Why aren't the Greens not a louder voice in UK politics? Environmental awareness is inseparatble from social justice issues.

C'mon Bob - don't tell us you can't see the similarities. Blair, Straw and Clarke clearly have far more in common with the politicians who paved the way for Hitler in Germany than they do with the likes of Atlee and Bevin. Or maybe Vichy-France is a more apt comparison... Criminalising dissent and co-operating with secret deportations to overseas torture camps? Marshall Pétain would have been so proud...

I appreciate your wanting to "change the system from the inside", but how sure can you be that you're changing the system rather than perpetuating it?

In fairness - Bob has made his case for staying in the party here. I don't agree, but at least Bob is standing up and making/meeting the argument.

Can't stop any longer I'm afraid. doors to knock, leaflets to deliver etc. Thanks for the space anyway. I've enjoyed the cut and thrust anyway, although I suspect not many minds have been changed, but hey, how unusual is that?

Bob:

"Yes, Mr Chappell, I see that involves you and Goatchurch working really hard for 30 seconds every year. Life must be nice in the slow lane."

Wow... blindly insulting your critics, rather than responding intelligently to criticism. Great way to convince people to vote for you.

A-Jesus - that'r party politicians for you. The problem is that Bob Piper is missing the point. Blair & co right now are a Labour party problem and only the Labour party can take action. The rest of us are stuck with the democratic restriction of having to work through the ballot box. Well, not me, I have to stay in the slow lane because I live in very un-democratic Hong Kong and don't even have a vote.

It's a wierd old world, isn't it?

Bob Piper, a good man, decides that Blairwatch are saying vote BNP, so puts that up on his website. A silly thing to do, by many people's standard. How many people read Blairwatch? As many as watch the 6pm BBC News? The ITV 6.30pm News? I very much doubt it. The person who put the BNP on top billing was Margaret Hodge (not, Patricia, as Quarsan said, although an easy mistake to make), Chrles Clarke, and the ginger ball-of-hatred that is Blears.

In some of Bob's good-hearted friends constituencies, BNP may well be snapping at the heals. That is hardly Blairwatch's fault.

Margaret Hodge identified a major problem, that most remaining Labour members and MPs continue to refute out of hand: there is a gap in the market, that those ex-Labour working class, who are unrepresented by Blairism have nowhere to go. The last 9 years have shown that in the broad church of New Labour, the left-of-centre are kicked out into the old shed beyond the outside privvy. The only choice is to abstain or vote for a smaller party.

Bob's cry of "this is what Blair wants you to do" brought to mind a conversation I had yesterday with a rebel MP who was driving around this northern Labour heartland, asking people to vote Labour.

Now I speak to his office quite regularly, I gave him a close-to-killer question for Blair after a disasterous PMQ showing. He used it and no doubt it will be what he is remembered for. But he too used the "it is what Blair wants" line on me when I told him I couldn't vote Labour on Thursday, I just morally couldn't do it. I like him, respect him, I really do; and I agree with 90% of what he says. Even were he my MP, which he is not, I couldn't do it.

He was thouroughly confused by the exchange. Hurt and confused. Which means, IMHO, he does not see the bigger picture, that any vote for him and his ilk are sabotaged by Blair as a vote for more of the same; and that Gordon Brown's tenure will be more of the same. I cannot, hand on heart, knowing what other women went through to get my vote for me, vote fo that. Voting for rebel left-wingers has not worked for the last 9 years in the face of a majority of sheep-like drones that constitute much of Labour ranks.

Having seen Blair and the Labour Party in their "listening and learning" mode, I see that the Labour Party - embrioled in the cult of personality that is Blairism - is like a slap-happy husband: They apologise, say they will look into their own heart and it will never happen again, they will consider us left-of-centre types out in the shed past the outside privvy.

But whatever is said, we the on the left, always get the next punch. we are derided as scum by NuLb lackey's for linking Iraq to 7/7 in the immediate aftermath of the bombings; for our belifs on so many subjects. We are never included in "Right thinking people" so beloved by this government.

Blair isn't the only problem; a Labour Party that refuses to grow some balls and remember who it USED to represent and why, most definately is. Where those lost votes end up is nobodies fault but the Labour Party.

And I for one say no to Labour, however nice or good-hearted the Labour councillor standing in front of me asking for my vote.

Sorry Bob

In defence of Bob, he does get some stick here and he doesn't give up - I'm warming to the guy. He is also in the heart of Enoch Powell territory where there is a real threat from the BNP. I think his worries are genuine, rather than the New Labour PR which is being disseminated by some people. Having nazis elected to the local council is unpleasant indeed.

I wouldn't say the Labour party doesn't have balls... it takes real 'nads to so brazenly screw up and then smile as though nothing happened.

Two things to say.

Firstly, I think these Labour apologists ought to take a step back and see how things must look from outside.

I have just received a letter from the Lib Dems, urging me to participate in the coming election. Spoiling my ballot paper, protesting against this whole cavalcade of nonsense, is what Blair wants me to do.

So, suppose I'm persuaded. Bob Piper and all his apologist mates, reminds me that the Labour Party is the natural party of the left (when he's not simply being puerile), and urges you to vote Labour, to support all the old Labour types who are struggling in the background. Voting lib dem/green/socialist and thus weakening the Labour Party is what Blair wants me to do.

At every stage, there's the same mantra: to advocate the dismantling of Blair's regime is, in practice, what Blair wants me to do. Everywhere there are little hints that say things will be better if you just shut your eyes and keep voting Labour: hints that more power to Labour will shift power from Blair to Brown; hints that more power to Labour will enable to the Old Left to be more open.

If Blair had designed this support network himself, it is inconceivable that he could do a better job. They've got it all perfect.

Secondly, there's a substantial difference between the Nazis and the BNP: the Nazis were competent.

Again and again in France and England alike in the last few decades, the far right have won the odd seat in local government, then lost it again when the populace realise they've elected a fiscally incompetent idiot whose racism brings them no gain.

I am, broadly speaking, not so very worried about the BNP. Certainly, I agree wholeheartedly that the job of the Labour Party is to be a credible party of government, rather than depend on people's fear to reelect them.

It is very distasteful that Labour can use them as a bogeyman in this way.

Crank, I am not a Labour 'apologist'... or anyone else's apologist any more than you are a Nazi appeaser. If you were actually to take the trouble to read what I said, the words shouldn't be too big or complicated for you, and then took the trouble to exercise a tiny amount of reasoning, you would have realised that. But you either haven't... or can't. So you cannot understand. Try again. Slowly this time. It might work for you.

Bob, I wrote half of Publicwhip, which has taken slightly more than 30 seconds to build. I have read too many lies from politicians who say what they stand for, but vote for something completely different. It's so much easier now to look it up now.

If there was a similar website for local government, I'd be able to look at your votes in your council and find out what you actually stood for. You might have voted the same way as the BNP on every single issue, for all we know.

Actually not. If you were in Parliament you would have voted for invading Iraq, while the BNP would have been against. The BNP wants to harm non-whites only within our national borders. How many do you think they could kill? A few tens of thousands? Things have become so bad with Blair's war that this would look like a lesser evil to an outsider.

There are some interesting and thought provoking contributors to Blairwatch, but goatchurch, you are an idiot and as ridiculous as your name. Why would I have voted for the war in Iraq? I spent ten years campaigning about the UN sanctions against Iraq which resulted in the death of half a million children, supported by the Tories (who you now advise people to vote for, despite their arms dealing with Sadamm; supported by Saint Robin Cook, canonised after his death for opposing the invasion, but Foreign Secretary during the sanctions; And I marched and demonstrated against the war, moved resolutions in my constituency party and support the Stop the war Coalition.

But you are not just ridiculous, you are a contemptible little appeasing twat. How many black people could the BNP kill? Only a few tens of thousands. You are a complete and detestable prat. Try asking the survivors of the holocaust, unless you are one of the deniers too, then piss off and join your stormtrooper friends.

Overtly, the BNP might appear to be isolationist but I think that a BNP government would be anything but (they are nazis afterall). New Labour needs to be taught a lesson, but we don't want to elect any nazis.

Bob, you seem to be a decent fellow and I am sorry for giving you an abusive post a while back. My question is this: how do you recommend that we get rid of Tony and his coterie? I don't want to vote out any decent labour councillors, but Tony needs to go (I'm not sure that Gordon will be any better). So what do we do?

Amidst the many insults, Bob claims he is not an apologist. If you look up "apologist" in the OED, you get:

One who apologizes for, or defends by argument; a professed literary champion.

Bob does seem to defend the Labour party by argument every so often. I expect that his post will not be remembered as a crowning achievement in the history of debate.

My points (and Goatchurch's points for that matter) sadly remain unanswered.

Bob
Good luck in your fight with the BNP. Same in France--'Front National', but bigger than with you. They still lost 80-20 in the Presidential election in 2002.

Unfortunately, and this is a fact shared by frogs, yanks, brits, etc, we are all trapped in the awfulness situation of "ANYBODY BUT Bush/Le Pen/BNP/Blair/(& Howard for the Ozzies).

Since you opposed the sanctions against Iraq, (we know why), why not stand as an Independent in the next elections after these ? Peter Law did it. Everyone knows you are a Labour Man, but also that you disagree profoundly with the national leadership .

Instead of NEW Labout, let's have some REAL Labour !

Dave, I've answered that earlier in this particular thread. Dick, getting rid of Blair is more difficult than many outside observers realise. The 'Benn reforms' in the 1980's (now dismissed by the media and political commentators as 'divisive') enabled challengers to get sufficient backing to trigger a contest for Leader and/or Deputy Leader. That has now been changed, and the power to trigger an election lies with the NEC. The fact is it is difficult for Parties to get rid of a sitting Leader in opposition (even when he's a dipso) and doubly difficult when he is Prime Minister, and one who has won three good majority's on the bounce.

I wouldn't advise anyone to vote against my Party, but I have told people on the doorstep who have stressed their opposition to Blair, that his supporters WILL use a vote for me as a vote for them. The voters can then make up their own minds.

Perhaps the fools who think I am a Blair apologist but would prefer to see a BNP which would only kill a few tens of thousands of black people are not worth replying to.

Bob, for what it's worth, I don't think you're a Labour apologist and it is very difficult to get rid of a party leader. Mind you, the threat of losing seats does tend to concentrate MP's minds.

I would also hope that people could listen to each other more rather than fling abuse. This thread and the one on Bob's site could have been an interesting discussion, and when the name calling stops it is.